McGreedy Bust--going, going, gone--episode thoughts/ discussion

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

What did you guys think of "MacCreedy bust, going, going, gone?"

I watched it for the first time last week. I remember reading somewhere that some people think Heyes didn't support Kid enough in this episode, and made fun of him.

I didn't see that, but wondered about different perspectives on it.

To me, Heyes was nervous as a cat, and his comments about Kid being clumsy or dumb were foolish--him saying the first thing he can think of to try to calm things down, even though it didn't seem to help in any of the situations--but not cruel.

I saw Heyes as floundering in this episode--not liking what was going on, but unable to change it. He couldn't convince Kid to stop wearing his gun, and then sometimes he started to 'run at the mouth.' He couldn't seem to talk anyone out of anything important in this episode. And some of what he said *was* mean because he was upset with Kid, and also he didn't seem to know which way to jump, and ended up taking his frustration out in snide words--that Kid glared at him about and then forgot. Anyway, that was my impression--be glad to hear others'.

For me, the key scene for Heyes was when he said "I'm too scared to eat!" I thought he kind of meant that, wasn't just saying it. This waiting around helplessly and most of all worrying about Kid, was really getting to him, & he felt helpless.

I am not trying to be a total Heyes girl here & defend him if he did wrong, so if I'm missing something, feel free to tell me, discuss, etc. :-)

And BTW, was it just me, or did his threat to "flatten you" to Kid come across as a little bit unconvincing?

I mean, not that I ever want the boys to fight--but if they did, do you think Heyes would win? Kid didn't look unnerved by the threat of fisticuffs--either threatened or angry--more like he felt 'down' about Heyes mad at him (and trying to interrupt his breakfast!).

I don't remember them shouting at each other so much in any ep that I've seen. I can only imagine the stress was really getting to them.

Heyes plea, "If you won't do it for me, do it for him!" was achy for me. I thought he seemed really worried about Kid, but also sort of hopeless. I found the ex-pastor a very interesting character, but I don't think Heyes seriously thought the man's renewed faith could (or should) be dependent on Kid's actions. I think he was just grasping at straws, trying to make Kid keep his word about being "meek."

I’m glad Heyes seems to realize that Kid is his own man and has to make his own choices, but it seems to eat at him, when he has to keep quiet and go along with it.

It makes me wonder how their interactions have changed through the years. When they were younger, and he could’ve “flattened” Kid—or talked a less stubborn (possibly?) or less confident Kid into playing things his way.

Aaannd...is it just me or would the smart thing to do have really been to buy some supplies, and camp out not far from the abandoned well??

I wonder if the townsfolk will grow backbone now that they saw Joe vanquished, and decide to vote. In most western movies, our guys would’ve gotten drawn into this, but here it was just a backdrop—not our guys’ fight or business, even though they knew what was going on and didn’t approve.

I think it’s sad that Kid never really thought he had a shot at amnesty, and thought that they should’ve split up to give Heyes a better chance.

All in all, this was an interesting character study.

GUEST STAR:
I kept thinking how much the guest star looked like Elvis around the eyes.

SNARK:
The carefully manicured hands shown when the two men were going for their guns drew me out of the episode and made me snort with laughter. Lots of men these days don't have their hands so clean--much less men who were in the Old West~!

Comments

[dawnebeth.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite episodes, with so much emotion and so many layers. Heyes is damned terrified that Kid will 'shoot off his mouth' if you'll forgive the pun, as well as his gun. They have a mission for McCreedy, and while on any other occasion, sitting around a town for a week wouldn't be hard with lots of poker and beer, this time, the tension really gets to the guys in different ways. Hutch gets tetchy, and I LOVE their shouting matches here. (contrary to you, I think they bitch, shout and get on each other's nerves quite often, their own way of silently saying I love you.) He wants to protect the Kid, maybe like he once did when Curry was younger, but it's not possible any longer.

Kid is his own man, and he isn't willing to bow down to any bully, no matter what the reason. Which shows how strong he really is--and how brave. That jig is humiliating, but Kid does it, because there isn't anything else he can do. I love when he says something about he started carrying a gun before he could shave, it's sad but so Kid.

Heyes isn't mean to the Kid at all, imo--I think he's supporting Kid the only way he knows how by trying to keep the peace--and their job, any way he can. Heyes is a manipulator of the first watch, but he can't do that with a stupid man holding a gun when the odds are stacked against them.

Heyes already knows he's lost the battle when he says "I'm gonna flatten you." There is no way he would have hit Kid, and secretly, he's proud of his partner.

Bradford Dillman's preacher is a fascinating character, with surprising nuance--the hallmark of what a good actor he is. He WANTS despretly to find a hook to hang his faith onto instead of finding it inside. I think he will go back to his church, but never have the moral fiber that Kid instinctively has. He's so hurt when Kid shoots because his hero has fallen.

Kid didn't fall (and his "What the hell did you expect?" is awesome.) He just came to the end of the rope and took the plunge, because someone had to stand up to the bully and pull the trigger. Kid learned manipulation at the knee of a master, though, and knows just how to wait for the other man to shoot first.

Lee Majors apparently disliked BM and PD, and the animosity comes through in his nasty performance. Totally different than his earlier role as sweet Heath Barkley.

[jekesta]

I think they bitch, shout and get on each other's nerves quite often, their own way of silently saying I love you

I totally agree with you on that, partly because I have a total sort of character kink for people who bitch and annoy each other as a way of giving reassurance and love. I like this episode a lot because we see them sort of teasingly bantering a lot, but here they're sort of just having a really tense time with shouting ♥. I love Heyes putting his fists up, and just refusing to let Curry leave. I love Curry responding to it not by going 'you're being ridiculous, I haven't lost a fight to you for ten years', but by seeing that he's really panicking and shoutingly promising that he is going to be careful and won't get them killed. I LOVE THEM.

[devilshole.livejournal.com]

And now I must tease you for calling Heyes "Hutch." :-) I find that sometimes I accidentally mix up my MFU/Starsky & Hutch/AS&J names too. I blame the menopause.

[dawnebeth.livejournal.com]

Aw, darn! Not the first time I've ever done that, either. My fandom has too many H's. Heyes, Hutch, Hobbes, Han...

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

Mmm, loved reading your thoughts on this! :D

That's interesting the guest star apparently disliked BM & PD. Wow, it sure seemed authentic; interesting to learn it was!! :)

Thanks for talking w/ me about this ep!! :)

[jekesta]

I am currently head over heels with Heyes so maybe I'm not being ever so balanced, but I LOVE this episode because of how he just lets Kid sort of get on with being stubborn and difficult, and he does support him! Just by being quiet and *there* and OH GOD I LOVE THEM SO MUCH. Sorry. I think he's so cross when the Kid first wants to go out with his gun because he's scared both of the Kid having his gun with him, and of him not. I think he's fine about not wearing his gun if Curry's got his, but than panics a bit at the thought of neither of them having a gun, and so just doesn't know properly what to do or how to play this one so he's sort of having to argue for one thing while panicking about it as well and it's all for nothing anyway because he knows the Kid and knows it's going to end with him shooting someone one way or another and yes.

His face when Kid dances his first jig! dsljdfiowef. It fills me with total happiness. I LOVE HIM.

Also Kid Curry does strange things to my insides when he says that he's taking his gun in case 'being a mouse doesn't exactly influence him'. Oh oh oh! And every time Kid Curry says 'I told you when we went for this amnesty that maybe we ought to split up -' I die just a little bit before he adds that obviously he only wanted to split up for Heyes's sake, so it's fine.

I rewatched this a few days ago, and did find it really strange how they don't actually SAVE THE TOWN from bullies, I kept thinking I can't remember how they're going to solve this, and then they just didn't! It was kind of refreshing. They can't save everyone.

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

His face when Kid dances his first jig! dsljdfiowef. It fills me with total happiness. I LOVE HIM.

Yeah it was weird to feel this mix of "poor Kid, they're humiliating him," and >.>;;; "longer, Kid!" LOL ;)

It was kind of refreshing. They can't save everyone.

Yeah, it was. :) It was more like real life, imo. These are men who are just trying to keep their heads above water--stay out of trouble, work towards amnesty, and find enough work to survive in the meantime. And they can't help / save everyone. That somehow makes them seem more human, especially because they do often get to play the heroes...nice to see them just barely making it at other times. ^^

[mcicioni.livejournal.com]

Beth said everything I wanted to say, only much more articulately than I ever could.

This is the episode that made me fall head-over-heels in love with AS&J long before I knew that slash existed. Love the friction between them, based on their different approaches to life on the dodge - love it because they can get angry and shout at each other, but never for one minute question their mutual commitment.

Love, absolutely love, Heyes trying to be the Authority Figure and not succeeding, because the Kid is an independent adult. Love the Kid's reply to "I'm gonna flatten you" - "Before breakfast?!" - a clever strategy to defuse the tension.

And I totally agree with Hutchynstarsk that the sensible thing to do would have been to camp near the well, but I really like the repetitive nature of the trips to the well, and the poor, brainless henchman whom H and C befriend.

[jekesta]

I totally agree with Hutchynstarsk that the sensible thing to do would have been to camp near the well

I'm shamed to admit I'd never thought of it! Maybe it's just that sometimes the idea of leaving comfortable beds to sleep on the ground again is edging for worse than the thought of getting into trouble and losing their amnesty and getting shot, or going to prison for twenty years.

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!! :D

a clever strategy to defuse the tension.

Yeah, totally! :D

and the poor, brainless henchman whom H and C befriend.

Heyes pulled out his cards with such *relish,* lol. ;) This guy seemed so clueless, I wondered how he survived as a "thug," or whatever his job description was. >.>

[solosundance.livejournal.com]

My favourite episode! We get so much about what the Kid thinks about himself and his worth, how the partnership works and I just love the hotel room scenes. The shouting and finger-poking and getting in each other's faces... wonderful! The best bit's just before the first jig I think, when Heyes suddenly realises that Kid's going to do it and he loves him so much and feels so damn bad for him... :D And Bradford Dillman was really memorable. Lee Majors... not so much.

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

:D Thanks for your thoughts! :)

I don't know what my favorite episode is. Probably one of the earliest when I was just falling in love with the show. Hm...now I wonder, lol. ;)

[jpgr.livejournal.com]

The first time I remember watching this was in the mid-late 80s when ABCFam was still CBN and had westerns all Saturday afternoon. My friend and I decided to put the 5 pat poker hands to the test and yes, it does work 9 out of 10 times. I actually used it in a fic I wrote ages back. It's such a nifty little thing.

(sorry I have no AS&J icons :( )

[devilshole.livejournal.com]

I actually used that to win a small bet years and years ago. :-) Once you know the trick there's nothing to it.

[dawnebeth.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes--not that I ever bet or anything, but I've been making "five pat hands" with 25 cards since I was about 14 years old. Heyes rules.

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

I still haven't tried it. ^^;

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

There are some on this comm, I'm pretty sure, that you can use for free. That's where I found mine. ((huggles it))

Thanks for sharing your ep thoughts! :)

[devilshole.livejournal.com]

This ep is a favorite of mine, entirely because of the horrid position the Kid's in and the way he and Heyes handle it. His own personal comfort zone won't let him go without his gun (although I would be willing to bet money that in another circumstance - say, he's at a convent - he'd take off his gun in a second to not scare the nuns), and he knows he's courting trouble but he can't get past his need to be armed (again, in this particular scenario); Heyes comes across, to me, as a man who knows the Kid's stubbornness could get him killed - that is, could get the Kid killed. He's scared for the Kid in this situation, and only secondarily worried about their job. That, to me, is why he tries to get the Kid to back down for the duration - he's not as worried about the bust as he is worried that Briggs might draw on the Kid and - just by chance - win. I think Heyes' faith in the Kid's fast draw is pretty solid, but he also is aware that someday, somewhere, someone might be faster, and that this might be the day.

Majors is great as Briggs - maybe I'm reading into it, but I see his hard bravado and the fear that underlies it.

The Kid's daily humiliation is so painful I can't watch it - but it makes the whole scenario all the more convincing. The arguments between Heyes and Kid, to me, speak of their affection. Heyes rides the Kid using everything he can think of to get the Kid to back down, but to me, it's solely out of concern for the Kid. And the Kid's honest about what he perceives to be his own personal weakness (the whole "We shoulda split up" monologue painfully but clearly outlines how he sees himself in their partnership - as the one most likely to "fail"). And Heyes never gives that argument a second's serious consideration. He keeps on treating the Kid as his inseparable (but annoying) partner. And I agree that the threat to flatten him isn't taken seriously by either of them; it's just a measure of Heyes' concern.

And Heyes totally backs the Kid up when it counts (during the shootout). Plus it's VERY sexy to see the Kid take charge like that. :-) That Heyes can back off and let the Kid speak for himself, and do what he feels he must, speaks to their mutual faith. Then Heyes is back to teasing the Kid, telling him they're back to normal.

Bradford Dillman's character always made me kinda cringe; he was too ... well, cliched and weak, to be honest.

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

but he also is aware that someday, somewhere, someone might be faster, and that this might be the day.

Or, my thought was, there were just too many of them--too dangerous for one guy to go up against what amounts to a whole load of guys, not just one nasty dude. (Like when the whole saloon practically stands up to support the bad guy at the first 'jig' scene.)

Heyes rides the Kid using everything he can think of to get the Kid to back down, but to me, it's solely out of concern for the Kid.

Yeah! Absolutely! That was my feeling, too. :D

And Heyes never gives that argument a second's serious consideration. He keeps on treating the Kid as his inseparable (but annoying) partner.

*nod nod* :D It's great....

[velyrhorde.livejournal.com]

Well, I should have checked my LJ from work is all I can say - I totally agree with everything everybody has said!

I do have one original thought - the whole "I'm gonna flatten you" scene did seem faked. I'm not sure if Pete and Ben were having an off day, or if Pete thought Heyes should really seem phony in such a situation, but it does come across as disturbingly (after getting used to the amazing portrayal of Heyes) fake.

[hutchynstarsk.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that could be! I figured it wasn't supposed to be convincing, with their relationship as established thus far. I mean, Kid "flattened" Heyes once (off camera), but Heyes has always been about smiling and charming and talking people out of stuff, not a lot of physical force--especially aimed at the Kid. :-)

[devilshole.livejournal.com]

I entirely agree that it was meaningless - even the Kid with his "before breakfast?" treated it as meaningless.

[mcicioni.livejournal.com]

This discussion is fantastic - we need more episode threads.

[velyrhorde.livejournal.com]

YES!!!

This is what I've been trying to get started -- I hope all our posts end up with so many comments that they run off the end of the "page!"